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Bobcat87 wrote:

Fran's last 3 years:

6-6
7-5
3-9

16 wins over 3 seasons . . . 2 seasons bowl eligible . . . Yet when Withers came in the squad was devoid of all talent . . .

I wasn't a Big fan of Fran . . . Hated his offense . . . Wasn't sorry to see him leave. But the idea that Withers came into a situation where the cupboard was totally bare is ridiculous.



Thanks Bobcat87. That's very well stated, but with people on this board it's strange how people create narratives and turn on the blinders when facts don't back up their assertions. People forget that 12 season ending injuries to key starters led to the 3-9 record, not a lack of talent on roster. But that doesn't fit people's perceptions, so they blow smoke at anything that disrupts their alternate reality.


Tue Dec 04, 2018 4:18 pm
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Bobcat87 wrote:
Saul Goodman wrote:
and you, apparently, don't understand how calendars and eligibility work.


Ohhh, now I get it . . . Being bowl eligible 2 of 3 years has nothing to do with talent . . . it’s all about calendars and eligibility . . . Thanks for enlightening me.

So in Fran’s last year, we had no talent and he went 3-9.

But in EW’s last year, the cupboards are loaded and he went 3-8. Seems like with all that talent EW had his last year he might have been able to muster better than a 3-8 record.

Seems like him being such a fine recruiter and judge of talent he might have done better than 7 wins over his 3 year tenure. The fact that it only took him 3 seasons to equal Fran’s worst win total (3) must make EW a pretty shi**y Coach . . . Seeing as how EW was so talent rich in his final season.

So cupboard bare 3-9 (2 years bowl eligible)
Cupboard stocked for Spav 3-8. (2-10, 2-10, can’t spell bowl eligible) Got it.


No. The year Fran went 3-9 was the year we had a ton a seniors and were expected to improve off the 7-5 season. We regressed badly instead. Some guys like Orakpo got hurt. Then they all graduated. Fran used a lot of JUCO players and so when EW came in the cupboards were empty and he ran off some of the talent left. The cupboards aren't empty now because there are only a handful of seniors graduating and a ton of freshmen and sophomores.


Tue Dec 04, 2018 4:21 pm
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TheRevSWT wrote:

When Fran retired, I believe (please don't make me look it up) we lost a large chunk of our starters to graduation. Most of the rest left due to the purge, and I think he kicked... 2 off (guys off the 2 deep mind you).





The purge was 26 people in addition to the graduating Seniors. It may be true that Withers only "officially" kicked off a few, but he did have a way of showing people the door without having to do that extra step (think about all the QBs on roster that left: Blake Peterson, Eddie Printz, Connor White....none were kicked off, but all were shown the door).


***Edit: when I asked my coworker who played college football, he said "oh, it's easy! I saw coaches run off a ton of people while I played."


Tue Dec 04, 2018 4:23 pm
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Even if everyone stayed, and no one was kicked off the team, Fran left the roster in bad shape.

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Tue Dec 04, 2018 4:31 pm
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Wow, that took a whole 2 posts to go completely off topic.

So I think it's pretty safe to say we won't need a QB coach or a LB coach. Anyone have any names they'd like to see as position coaches? I'm hoping that increased salary pool can get us something better than a bunch of nobodies.


Tue Dec 04, 2018 5:18 pm
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Beat me to it Drumcat... hilarious how this coaching post went from possible coaches to Fran. Ugh.

Gotta let things go fellas. Fran served his purpose to get us from DI-AA to DI. He did that. Withers tried to move program further and did one thing by instilling strong values for players. We may not have liked them but if HC Spavital has success next year... that will be because of Withers players he left him.

Lets move on and worry about these coaches we have moving forward. I can't link but there was a Soutthwest roundup twitter article on Bob Stitt that is good. Someone else can find and link please.


Tue Dec 04, 2018 5:28 pm
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1. Fran left the cupboard completely fucking empty.
2. Withers didn't do himself any favors by not signing some JUCO kids.
3. Spavital inherits a team in much better shape.
4. 3-9 in 2015 is not the same as 3-9 in 2018

These points are inarguable, but here we go:

1. Look at the 2015 stats and tell me how Fran didn't leave the cupboard empty. We graduated 86% of our receptions and receiving yards in 2015. The only reason rushing doesn't look the same way is because Fran ran the dogshit out of Tyler Jones that year. Without considering Jones, we graduated 76% of our rushing yards. Even taking into account the kids that quit or got kicked off, we were still fucked. We only had 7 scholarship offensive lineman in 2016.

Image

And the defense was worse. We graduated 8 of the top 10 tacklers. The only returners in the top 10 were Alexcee (who was never a good tackler) and Karee Berry (who quit the day Withers arrived).

2. Withers fucked up by not signing JUCO kids. He deliberately avoided it and instead tried to build it "the right way". It cost him his job. At the very least, he should have tried to sign some JUCO offensive lineman, especially in his first 2 signing classes.

3. There's a big difference taking over a program on Nov 30th compared to January 6th, especially the first year. Next, the only players we graduated are Watts on offense, who had 23 yards rushing (1% of team total) and 186 yards receiving (8% of team total) and AJ Krawczyk, who had 27 tackles (2% of team total) and Sami Awad on defense.

Compared to the 2016 team, you have to think that AD Taylor, Twyford, Brown, and Smith are better a better running back group than Siudzinski, Mayberry, and a younger Taylor and Brown.

You have to think that Brown is better than Schrade at TE.

You have to think that Haydel, White, Banks, Sheread, and Aragon a better receiving core than anything we had in 2016.

You have to think that the defense we had this year, all of them returning, is better than what we had in 2016.

4. The 2015 team beat FCS PVA&M, (5-7) South Alabama, and (2-11) ULM. They got blown out in pretty much every other game except a 6pt loss to (9-5) South Miss and 7pt loss to (4-8) Idaho.

The 2018 team beat FCS Texas Southern, (2-10) Georgia State, and (3-9) NMST. We were one or two plays (or shitty calls by the ref or OC) away from beating a really bad UTSA team, a bad USA team, a pretty good GS team, a pretty good ULM team, and a good Troy team.


Tue Dec 04, 2018 5:46 pm
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Post Re: Coaches
Bobkat34 wrote:
Beat me to it Drumcat... hilarious how this coaching post went from possible coaches to Fran. Ugh.

Gotta let things go fellas. Fran served his purpose to get us from DI-AA to DI. He did that. Withers tried to move program further and did one thing by instilling strong values for players. We may not have liked them but if HC Spavital has success next year... that will be because of Withers players he left him.

Lets move on and worry about these coaches we have moving forward. I can't link but there was a Soutthwest roundup twitter article on Bob Stitt that is good. Someone else can find and link please.


Try this;

https://swcroundup.com/news/2018/12/3/t ... ts-offense


Tue Dec 04, 2018 10:42 pm
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Post Re: Coaches
tx.state wrote:
1. Fran left the cupboard completely fucking empty.
2. Withers didn't do himself any favors by not signing some JUCO kids.
3. Spavital inherits a team in much better shape.
4. 3-9 in 2015 is not the same as 3-9 in 2018

These points are inarguable, but here we go:

1. Look at the 2015 stats and tell me how Fran didn't leave the cupboard empty. We graduated 86% of our receptions and receiving yards in 2015. The only reason rushing doesn't look the same way is because Fran ran the dogshit out of Tyler Jones that year. Without considering Jones, we graduated 76% of our rushing yards. Even taking into account the kids that quit or got kicked off, we were still fucked. We only had 7 scholarship offensive lineman in 2016.

Image

And the defense was worse. We graduated 8 of the top 10 tacklers. The only returners in the top 10 were Alexcee (who was never a good tackler) and Karee Berry (who quit the day Withers arrived).

2. Withers fucked up by not signing JUCO kids. He deliberately avoided it and instead tried to build it "the right way". It cost him his job. At the very least, he should have tried to sign some JUCO offensive lineman, especially in his first 2 signing classes.

3. There's a big difference taking over a program on Nov 30th compared to January 6th, especially the first year. Next, the only players we graduated are Watts on offense, who had 23 yards rushing (1% of team total) and 186 yards receiving (8% of team total) and AJ Krawczyk, who had 27 tackles (2% of team total) and Sami Awad on defense.

Compared to the 2016 team, you have to think that AD Taylor, Twyford, Brown, and Smith are better a better running back group than Siudzinski, Mayberry, and a younger Taylor and Brown.

You have to think that Brown is better than Schrade at TE.

You have to think that Haydel, White, Banks, Sheread, and Aragon a better receiving core than anything we had in 2016.

You have to think that the defense we had this year, all of them returning, is better than what we had in 2016.

4. The 2015 team beat FCS PVA&M, (5-7) South Alabama, and (2-11) ULM. They got blown out in pretty much every other game except a 6pt loss to (9-5) South Miss and 7pt loss to (4-8) Idaho.

The 2018 team beat FCS Texas Southern, (2-10) Georgia State, and (3-9) NMST. We were one or two plays (or shitty calls by the ref or OC) away from beating a really bad UTSA team, a bad USA team, a pretty good GS team, a pretty good ULM team, and a good Troy team.


This about sums it up.....

Curiously, no response from the folks arguing differently.

Hate on Withers all you want, but he's leaving the program in a thousand times better shape than Fran left for Withers. Pieces are there for Spav to possibly have immediate success. Withers had next to no chance to be successful in 2016. Withers may have not taken the appropriate steps to get it back to competitive as quickly as he should have, but we were destined to be bad in 2016 almost regardless of what he did. Spav has a chance at success in 2019.

You can argue Fran did a good job of transitioning us from FCS to FBS. Having some success (against a worse Sun Belt in 2013-2014 than it is now) in those two bowl eligible seasons doesn't mean he left things in good shape for Withers though. Things were vastly different in November of 2014 than they were in January 2016 and those failures were on Fran and his staff. Frankly, I think the shape of the program was a huge reason Fran retired. He knew what was coming.

Withers was developing things for the long term, he just took too long.


Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:01 pm
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tx.state pulled out his boulders and drug them up and down this thread.


Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:28 pm
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LSU Bobcat wrote:
tx.state pulled out his boulders and drug them up and down this thread.




I think you meant to say "selectively" pulled out his boulders to make them fit nicely with y'alls narrative. The only "key" loss to graduation was Lowe and Mayberry was a decent enough replacement. Go back and do a comparison from the 2015 to 2016 roster and you'll see a completely different story.


Wed Dec 05, 2018 8:40 pm
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x wrote:
This about sums it up.....

Curiously, no response from the folks arguing differently.





Some of us have lives and don't live on this board 24/7 to validate our fandom like Saul and Rev do.


Wed Dec 05, 2018 8:42 pm
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Bobcat.taxman wrote:
x wrote:
This about sums it up.....

Curiously, no response from the folks arguing differently.





Some of us have lives and don't live on this board 24/7 to validate our fandom like Saul and Rev do.


Says the guy that sought out a thread from a few years ago to brag about him being right?

That's rich, even for you.

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Wed Dec 05, 2018 8:54 pm
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TheRevSWT wrote:

Says the guy that sought out a thread from a few years ago to brag about him being right?

That's rich, even for you.




Took all of 20 secs, it was easy to find.


Wed Dec 05, 2018 8:59 pm
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x wrote:
tx.state wrote:
1. Fran left the cupboard completely fucking empty.
2. Withers didn't do himself any favors by not signing some JUCO kids.
3. Spavital inherits a team in much better shape.
4. 3-9 in 2015 is not the same as 3-9 in 2018

These points are inarguable, but here we go:

1. Look at the 2015 stats and tell me how Fran didn't leave the cupboard empty. We graduated 86% of our receptions and receiving yards in 2015. The only reason rushing doesn't look the same way is because Fran ran the dogshit out of Tyler Jones that year. Without considering Jones, we graduated 76% of our rushing yards. Even taking into account the kids that quit or got kicked off, we were still fucked. We only had 7 scholarship offensive lineman in 2016.

Image

And the defense was worse. We graduated 8 of the top 10 tacklers. The only returners in the top 10 were Alexcee (who was never a good tackler) and Karee Berry (who quit the day Withers arrived).

2. Withers fucked up by not signing JUCO kids. He deliberately avoided it and instead tried to build it "the right way". It cost him his job. At the very least, he should have tried to sign some JUCO offensive lineman, especially in his first 2 signing classes.

3. There's a big difference taking over a program on Nov 30th compared to January 6th, especially the first year. Next, the only players we graduated are Watts on offense, who had 23 yards rushing (1% of team total) and 186 yards receiving (8% of team total) and AJ Krawczyk, who had 27 tackles (2% of team total) and Sami Awad on defense.

Compared to the 2016 team, you have to think that AD Taylor, Twyford, Brown, and Smith are better a better running back group than Siudzinski, Mayberry, and a younger Taylor and Brown.

You have to think that Brown is better than Schrade at TE.

You have to think that Haydel, White, Banks, Sheread, and Aragon a better receiving core than anything we had in 2016.

You have to think that the defense we had this year, all of them returning, is better than what we had in 2016.

4. The 2015 team beat FCS PVA&M, (5-7) South Alabama, and (2-11) ULM. They got blown out in pretty much every other game except a 6pt loss to (9-5) South Miss and 7pt loss to (4-8) Idaho.

The 2018 team beat FCS Texas Southern, (2-10) Georgia State, and (3-9) NMST. We were one or two plays (or shitty calls by the ref or OC) away from beating a really bad UTSA team, a bad USA team, a pretty good GS team, a pretty good ULM team, and a good Troy team.


This about sums it up.....

Curiously, no response from the folks arguing differently.

Hate on Withers all you want, but he's leaving the program in a thousand times better shape than Fran left for Withers. Pieces are there for Spav to possibly have immediate success. Withers had next to no chance to be successful in 2016. Withers may have not taken the appropriate steps to get it back to competitive as quickly as he should have, but we were destined to be bad in 2016 almost regardless of what he did. Spav has a chance at success in 2019.

You can argue Fran did a good job of transitioning us from FCS to FBS. Having some success (against a worse Sun Belt in 2013-2014 than it is now) in those two bowl eligible seasons doesn't mean he left things in good shape for Withers though. Things were vastly different in November of 2014 than they were in January 2016 and those failures were on Fran and his staff. Frankly, I think the shape of the program was a huge reason Fran retired. He knew what was coming.

Withers was developing things for the long term, he just took too long.



I never said that Withers didn't leave the program in better shape (i.e.:more talent on the roster).

I said the idea that Fran left the cupboards totally bare is ridiculous. You aren't bowl eligible 2 of your final 3 years with a squad totally devoid of talent. I get that a lot of you don't like Fran. Not my favorite coach either. You can argue the amount of talent Fran left, but to say there was none is to be living in denial.

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Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:22 pm
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