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slycat
True Bobcat Fan
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2005 5:27 pm
Posts: 3411
Location: Houston
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 Re: Penn St. tw_fatcat wrote: slycat wrote: http://aol.sportingnews.com/ncaa-football/story/2012-07-13/freeh-report-penn-state-joe-paterno-ncaa-death-penalty-jerry-sandusky?eadid=EL/SICOM&sct=hp_t2_a15 Quote: You could argue that covering up Sandusky aided the team. But it just allowed Penn State to conduct football business as usual. Harboring a pedophile did not give the Nittany Lions a recruiting advantage.
Penn State would be the first school sanctioned solely because its representatives broke the law. That may sound dandy, but it would set a prickly precedent.
Police arrested 30 Florida football players during Urban Meyer’s tenure. Would that now rise to “lack of institutional control?” Just this spring, Montana fired its football coach and athletic director after two football players were accused of sexual assault. Does Emmert need to act?
What would the new standard be to initiate sanctions? And do you trust the Inspector Clouseaus at the NCAA to administer them fairly? And the Penn State lynch mob acts as if the violations happened last season. The smoking gun was fired in 2001. Incoming recruits were in second grade.
Recall cases like USC, where Reggie Bush cashed in and Pete Carroll waltzed to the NFL. The NCAA comes down, leaving Matt Barkley and other innocents to pay for old Trojan sins. If you want the death penalty in Happy Valley, don’t ever rail against such injustice again.
About 99.9 percent of the people there are as sickened by Sandusky as you are. Critics say they still need to be sent to timeout for loving their coach, donating their money and being slavishly loyal. Yes, they are guilty of being part of a runaway football culture. If that alone warrants the death penalty, there should be no games this fall in Tuscaloosa, Austin, Columbus and a lot of other places.
Penn State’s lack of institutional control warrants far more severe punishment than the NCAA could ever dispense. What we need now is a little more emotional control. The article has a point but these other cases only involved football players and did not involve activities within the football fieldhouse and a for all intents and purposes, school (and team) sanctioned cover up. I believe that could fall under any number of reasons to give the death penalty. As far as I can see they are using terrible examples. A better example would have bee the shooting at Baylor. Great example but still no death penalty. I can't believe that Baylor got hit so hard and the coach got a new job pretty quick. he should be banned for the crap he pulled. Same with the Penn St folks. Ban them from the industry.
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| Sun Jul 15, 2012 11:15 am |
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atxman
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Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2005 6:24 pm
Posts: 5166
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Re: Penn St. I understand the argument about not wanting to punish the current players at a university when they weren't at fault. But what does that mean then? If the purpose of illicit behavior was to protect or benefit an institution (and if that behavior was engaged in or condoned by leadership up and down the line), can you still not punish the institution as a whole because you might also be punishing players who weren't at fault?
To tell the truth, I'm tempted to support that kind of proposition so long as all of the leadership responsible for that behavior are are held to account -- fired, prosecuted, fined, whatever. But what happens if the behavior is so ingrained in the culture of an institution that all of the leadership is at fault (actively or passively)? I mean, lower-level employers were afraid of doing much to protect the kids because they were worried they might lose their jobs or otherwise offend the powers that be at an institution where football and its coaches were worshipped. Even worse, what happens when the culture of an institution is such that its own supporters are willing to look the other way or make excuses for the actions (or inaction) of their leaders? Students (only some, admittedly) at Penn State actually rioted when Paterno was fired for not acting to stop a pedophile.
I'll say I'm glad I don't have to make the call here. It's tough one for sure. But if ever there was a time to punish an institution as a whole, this would seem to be it. Like I said before, I love football and get a lot of joy out of it. But damn. Things are really upside down when an institution acts to protect a pedophile rather than his victims.
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| Sun Jul 15, 2012 11:30 am |
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TheRevSWT
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Joined: Mon Nov 03, 2003 8:34 pm
Posts: 10050
Location: Ten minutes north of Lake Travis
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Re: Penn St. atxman wrote: To tell the truth, I'm tempted to support that kind of proposition so long as all of the leadership responsible for that behavior are are held to account -- fired, prosecuted, fined, whatever. But what happens if the behavior is so ingrained in the culture of an institution that all of the leadership is at fault (actively or passively)? I mean, lower-level employers were afraid of doing much to protect the kids because they were worried they might lose their jobs or otherwise offend the powers that be at an institution where football and its coaches were worshipped. Even worse, what happens when the culture of an institution is such that its own supporters are willing to look the other way or make excuses for the actions (or inaction) of their leaders? To me, it is an easy situation: If you knew about the transgressions and didn't call the police (for whatever reason... Protection of the institution, fear of losing job, etc), then you get shitcanned and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. Oh, and a last nail in the coffin, they are banned from any position within the realm of academia for life. This accomplishes two things: 1. It punishes those that let such HORRIBLE things happen to kids, and 2. It instantly changes the culture of the institution. Mainly because those that are so het up on protecting the institution under any circumstances are gone, but it also serves as a notice to the remaining staff: the law comes first. atxman wrote: Students (only some, admittedly) at Penn State actually rioted when Paterno was fired for not acting to stop a pedophile. At first, I was on board with them rioting. It was my understanding (at the time), that the 2003 incident was the one that came to light. If I recall correctly, Sandusky wasn't part of the program, only a "friend of" the program at that time. The 1998 deal hadn't come to light yet. I'd wager that IF JoePa had not been let go (and not died shortly after) until AFTER the results of the former FBI guy came out... You wouldn't have a riot at all.
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| Sun Jul 15, 2012 11:52 am |
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bobcathusband
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Joined: Tue Apr 04, 2006 12:35 pm
Posts: 817
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Re: Penn St. Why did JoePa and the admin cover it up in the first place? Because he thought football would take a revenue/media hit. In trying to protect football for everyone they let it morph into something much worse. I don't think you can surgically clean out something like Penn St., it would be akin to trying to clean house at UT or A&M, and probably somewhat more difficult than that given the culture at Penn St. There's always going to be loyalists left around who privately think nothing wrong happened. Just look at the defiant decision to keep the JoePa statue up...the least they could do is put it in storage for a while. They're going to remodel the showers where the rapes occurred? The showers didn't cause the rapes.
I don't see taking away football as a real punishment for the players. Just chalk it up to stuff happens in life. It's a priviliege to play and 98% of them will go on to play CFB somewhere else and the ones who are NFL worthy are going to end up there anyways. Students/fans/alumni will 'suffer' from lack of football but what is it compared to the suffering of a few dozen boys that got buggered by Sandusky. If Bobcat football disappeared from Saturdays, would I miss it..yes, suffer...no.
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| Sun Jul 15, 2012 2:11 pm |
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tpopt
True Bobcat Fan
Joined: Sat Feb 14, 2009 11:53 am
Posts: 3660
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Re: Penn St. I started to write my final thoughts on the situation but found myself still conflicted.
I think that I change my vote to sanction. Maybe be self imposed as almost a period to forget and hell, just out of respect for the victims. I only say this because I think that a generation may have to pass or the generations alive today may have to die before this crap blows over.
Funny how one deviant, selfish, sick individual can affect so many. After thinking about it, it is not only unfortunate for the athletes who can still transfer but for anyone who was/is affiliated at all. That MFer really Fd up Penn St. Geez, I would even hesitate to put on a resume out of fear of being judged.
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| Sun Jul 15, 2012 2:58 pm |
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atxman
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Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2005 6:24 pm
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Re: Penn St. My final break with the Catholic church came because of the sex abuse scandal there. Penn St. officials did pretty much the same thing the church did. It's hard for me to imagine a worse crime than to hurt a child or, for that matter, anyone else who is vulnerable like that. This can't end with a few people getting fired or even going to jail. Something more is required.
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| Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:30 pm |
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TheRevSWT
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Joined: Mon Nov 03, 2003 8:34 pm
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Location: Ten minutes north of Lake Travis
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Re: Penn St. atxman wrote: My final break with the Catholic church came because of the sex abuse scandal there. Penn St. officials did pretty much the same thing the church did. It's hard for me to imagine a worse crime than to hurt a child or, for that matter, anyone else who is vulnerable like that. This can't end with a few people getting fired or even going to jail. Something more is required. I think the big thing there is that the Pope is still the Pope, the cardinals are still the cardinals, etc. At Penn State, I'm expecting a house cleaning. In the Catholic church, the top of the top was helping to hide, and they stayed in power. In the Penn State Case, heads are going to most likely roll.
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| Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:36 pm |
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atxman
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Re: Penn St. TheRevSWT wrote: I think the big thing there is that the Pope is still the Pope, the cardinals are still the cardinals, etc.
At Penn State, I'm expecting a house cleaning.
In the Catholic church, the top of the top was helping to hide, and they stayed in power. In the Penn State Case, heads are going to most likely roll. True on all points.
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Malleus wrote: It's not funny when you use my joke against me.
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| Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:41 pm |
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bluecat5100
True Bobcat Fan
Joined: Sat Dec 19, 2009 9:41 pm
Posts: 1179
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Re: Penn St. Agreed. I'm guessing 20 mil to each victim after its said and done
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| Sun Jul 15, 2012 7:08 pm |
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tw_fatcat
True Bobcat Fan
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2008 4:53 am
Posts: 2600
Location: Back in Vancouver BC
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Re: Penn St. With as hard as they could be hit in the pocket Penn State may have to fold their athletics on their own. Hopefully these victims ask for astronomical numbers and they get it.
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| Sun Jul 15, 2012 10:04 pm |
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bleed gold
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Re: Penn St. tw_fatcat wrote: With as hard as they could be hit in the pocket Penn State may have to fold their athletics on their own. Hopefully these victims ask for astronomical numbers and they get it. 100% with you there. If there is ever an example of "punitive damages," this is it. I think it can and will financially handicap Penn State for decades and could lead to the shutdown of programs. I support sanctions & a death penalty in this case. This isn't just about punishing Penn State--it is about turning Penn State into a warning beacon for other universities. Such an action would draw a clear line that the "Cult of Football" cannot be allowed to essentially run a university, and that a sense of morals & ethics must be maintained. Sure--you'll hear the slippery slope argument about using criminal charges as the basis for NCAA violations, but I think that is a fallacy. This would be a NCAA violation not for molesting children, but for the cover-up that accompanied it. That, I think, speaks to their willingness to conceal. Furthermore, the fact that the athletic department was able to cover this up and the President's unwillingness to exert appropriate institutional control I think speaks to the potential NCAA role in handing out a punishment. One of the things I really liked in the Freeh report was that it wasn't just an indictment--he also included 120 recommendations to prevent similar issues in the future.
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| Mon Jul 16, 2012 1:21 pm |
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